Robin Hood stole from the rich and gave to the poor, Bill Nighy would steal from savers and give to the politicians
Nov 2011 03

This evening, Channel 4 News at 7pm will be screening a debate between me and the actor Bill Nighy on proposals for a Financial Transactions, or Robin Hood, Tax.  UPDATE: You can watch the video after the break.

Bill Nighy wrote for the Guardian recently arguing that the Financial Transactions Tax was an all-round wonderful idea only scuppered by bankers not wanting to pay their way.  The reality couldn’t be further from the truth.  The reality is that the people who would pay this tax would be savers struggling to afford a comfortable retirement.  Already struggling with high inflation, they would be hit again as the share prices that underlie the performance of most pension funds would be depressed.  In the longer term, particularly if the tax isn’t applied globally, workers would suffer too with fewer opportunities and lower wages as investment went elsewhere.

He hides that problem with the misleading statement that according “to the IMF it would be paid predominantly by the richest”, which he then translates for the rest of his article into this money coming out of the pockets of the likes of Goldman Sachs executives.  The reality is that the IMF paper he is referring to says that burden would “fall on owners of traded securities, at the time the tax was introduced, as the value of stocks, bonds and derivatives subject to” the new tax.  In other words, savers.

Of course people with savings are generally significantly better off than those without them.  For example, people on benefits aren’t saving and their retirement income will depend on the level of state pension entitlements rather than investment returns.  The other group this won’t affect as much – though they are actually relatively well off – are public sector workers, whose unfunded, defined benefit pensions also aren’t dependent on investment returns.

Savers will pay and, while they are on average significantly better off than people who aren’t saving, they aren’t all plutocrats.  We are talking about plenty of normal people struggling to save and invest, to build up a pension fund and provide for themselves and their family.  This certainly isn’t a tax on the banks.

British politicians are constantly urging people to save, that’s why things like tax free ISAs are available.  Hitting them with a new tax would achieve precisely the opposite and further put people off putting money aside for their old age.  That means taxpayers will have to pick up the bill instead and poses a mortal threat to the long term stability of our public finances with an ageing population.

In the longer term, by making it more expensive for companies to raise finance this measure would depress investment.  Particularly in an open economy like ours, and if the tax wasn’t truly global, capital would “flow out until its after-tax return was restored to the world market level.”  Less investment means fewer jobs and lower wages.  As the IMF say: “In the long run, capital owners would therefore not bear the burden of the STT; it would fall on workers, who as a result of the smaller capital stock would be less productive and receive lower wages.”

Other countries have seen that these taxes don’t work.  Australia abolished a stamp duty on shares in 2001, for example.  The IMF reported that these taxes have been in steady decline internationally in recent years.  We do have a stamp duty on shares in Britain but it is a disastrously inefficient tax, despite some differences in the conditions making it less onerous than a pure transactions tax.

In 1999, researchers at the London School of Economics found that while other transaction costs for UK equities had more than halved while Stamp Duty had remained constant.  As the Forsyth Commission reported (pgs. 103-104), those higher transaction costs depress share prices by up to 10 per cent.  One study suggests that if it were abolished the increase in the market capitalisation of the FTSE All Share could be in the region of £150 billion.  That suggests the around £4 billion a year the tax raises is pretty poor value.  If the Robin Hood Tax is supposed to raise much more money than that, then it will do even more to destroy share prices.

And stamp duty on shares also makes it more expensive for companies to raise the finance they need to grow and compete with rivals abroad.  Oxera found that abolishing the tax would reduce the cost of equity by 7 to 8.5 per cent on average, but technology companies for example might pay up to 12 per cent less.  That means abolishing the tax would increase investment, and bring more jobs and higher wages for British workers.  Bill Nighy wants us to go in the opposite direction.

This tax would be bad for the City, but that doesn’t make it good for the rest of us.  It would be an immediate disaster for savers and a longer term disaster for workers.  It would also increase volatility in financial markets, as I have written before, thereby increasing risk.

And that’s before we get onto how the money will be spent.  Bill Nighy’s idea is that it will go on aid for poor countries.  But even if you think the rapidly rising development budget – while taxes are rising and spending is being cut here in Britain – isn’t enough, European politicians appear to have other plans.  They want to use it to finance their wasteful spending and grand plans in Brussels.  Is that where you want your savings spent?

This is a bad plan and the Government should reject it regardless of whether international agreement can be secured.

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  • Adam Smith

    Totally agree; good blog

  • George Hallam

    How do I join the Taxpayers’ Alliance?

  • http://twitter.com/azizonomics azizonomics

    Anyone familiar with actual trading volumes knows that the overwhelming majority of this tax would be paid by trading institutions engaging in HFT and algo. So not “savers” at all.

    I prefer the idea of letting failed financial institutions fail to any Robin Hood Tax, but if we can’t have the first the second is better than nothing.

    • http://twitter.com/mjhsinclair Matthew Sinclair

      The IMF know a fair bit about this and argue the incidence falls on savers.  See my source.

      • Michael Smith

        You, on the other hand, know nothing. Which is why some of us earn 7 figures in the City making a killing while you embarrass yourself in public. Having said that, if you want me to carry on paying less tax than you, more fool you…

    • John Watson

      azizonomics

      Agreed, banks should be allowed to fail with NO government guarantees. If you as an individual, put money into an insecure account then you take the risk if the banks goes under and not the rest of us. Iceland & Antigua governments had a banking crash worth billions however they never bailed out the banks but their economise our now recovering.  The rest of the world who bailed out their banks are still digging. While the bankers got a bail out the rest of us have lost jobs, pay freezes and pay cuts.  Its time to end government control over the banking sector, end the BOE(Bank of England) and allow the banking sector survive in the free market as the local butcher down the road.   

  • http://twitter.com/ukgoldbug Gold Bug

    Nighy is a typical champagne socialist, lucid seeming, idiot. He sounds convincing to all those millions of people that don’t understand finance just like all those lefty politicians that have ruining Britain in the last century. He actually believes that government can spend money wisely- something that had been disproved by every politician, every bureaucrat and every policy they have ever conceived. The old right/left political divides are really pointless and dangerous now. What we really face is the divide between big state authoritarians and free market libertarians. Nighy is the worst of the “big staters”.

    • Macaw090

      You say the left/right divides are pointless and dangerous and yet you start your comment by referring to champagne socialists and lefty politicians. This isn’t a left/right issue, it’s just a bad idea.

    • alunadale

      Nice rant. If a little foamy. ‘Lefty’ governments held power for less than a third of the last century, therefore, ‘Righty’ polititians must have ruined Britain. Never spent money wisely? Never ever? Not even on Spitfires or the Queen? Free market Libertarians gave us the worst Global financial crisis in a century and obscene levels of inequality. The current administration of big state dismantlers are increasing child poverty, raising unemployment and depressing economic growth. I’m missing the big state already. Accuse me of being a socialist and i will wear it that accusation as a badge of pride, the alternative is not nice. Especially if you are young, ill, old, disabled, a single parent, poor, unemployed…etc.

  • http://profiles.google.com/sadbutmadlad Sad But Mad Lad

    When Nighy appeared on BBC Breakfast he said that the FTT would be a great thing for the UK, even when pressed that if only the UK implemented it all business would go elsewhere. Just shows how well connected his brain is with reality.

  • Chris Tolmie

    It will be savers who pay!  My pension fund is (like everyone else’s) invested in stocks and shares.  Each month that I save a little more, the transaction tax will be taken from me.  If the charge is per transaction, then long term savers who keep their investments in the same stocks and shares for a long period would pay less than people who are constantly hopping around.   The charge does penalise more, those people who make frequent changes to their investments – so hitting speculators even more than us savers.
    However, if the tax is implemented only in Europe then we may all be forced to move our pensions, ISAs, and other savings to Asia where taxes are lower and growth is higher..

  • Blarg1987

    Having read parts of the IMF report it is interesting to note that the Tobin tax is only a tax on foreign transactions.

    Now at a time where we want to encourage investment in British industry and money kept in the British economy instead of going to off shore accounts if as you say a Tobin tax will put people off etc then surely this is a good idea and you are shooting yourself in the foot to say otherwise unless you advocate monies going abroad and not being spent on goods services and indsstries in the United Kingdom?

    To pick up on another note please be more accurate in your report SUM public sector are unfunded other schemes ARE funded and have used the monies from members and tax payers to invest in stocks shares, property and other assets which ironically help fund british industry, as a outlet of information such false information could casue confusion and make people question your motives.

    • Macaw090

      Spot on with your last paragraph. The TPA just can’t resist taking a swipe at public sector workers at every opportunity and supports the theory that they are simply a front for the Conservative party. They have been very successful in helping the government to drive a wedge between public and private sector workers, the ones that truly are “all in this together” .

  • Teecee90

    An interesting debate.

  • Kenarf

    I pay and charge 20% on all my business transactions. I fail to see how a fraction of 1% is going to seriously impact on wealthy institutions such as banks. I have to ask Matthew Sinclair who he believes he is representing.

    • Tubby Isaacs

      Exactly, Kenarf. All those skills the City tells us it has. Apparently a 1% tax wipes them all out!
      Compared with your business coping with a 2.5% rise in VAT, it isn’t very much.
      And the old “The City est en danger” cry doesn’t work as well as it did.

      • Anonymous

        Kenarf and Tubby: obviously you haven’t thoroughly done your sums. This tax might seem small, but it’s not! It would mean the prohibitive costs of  business would drive the City to USA, Hong Kong, Singapore and any other non-taxing competitive finance centers.
        It’s a stealth tax. Its multiplied costs would be handed down to the average Joe. Pensioners would take a very big hit. The people pushing this do not know what they are talking about. Income tax revenues would disappear, exponential jobs would disappear. I am from a foreign country that wouldn’t touch this tax with a forty foot barge pole. No sane government would kill its major revenue contributors just for the sake of appeasing the uninformed who seek misguided revenge. Check out who caused the GFC – irresponsible mortgage borrowers! You just can’t tax something that would no longer exist!

        • Blarg1987

          I Don’t think the city would emigrate to another continent as you do need a major finanical hub in europe to keep time with New York and Hong Kong, so if it was at least a European wide system including Switzerland etc it could theoretically work but your right in your point that people will try to avoid it in any way shape or form.

        • Kenarf

          Irresponsible mortgage borrowers were given money by irresponsible institutions lending up to and over 100% to people who were not credit-worthy for property that was over-valued.

          No-one likes tax and extravagant claims will be made for the impact. Where will RBS (84% owned by us) find the money to pay out the £0.5 billion of bonuses they plan to pay this year?

          Don’t make me laugh about them having to pay the money because otherwise people would leave. Where would these geniuses go? Who would take on people with RBS on their CV?

          Just out of curiosity, who do you work for? I work for myself and am truly fed up with being ripped off. I at least hoped the TPA might be on my side.

          • Anonymous

            I live in a US friendly country that wouldn’t touch this economy dexstructive tax with a forty foot barge pole. Our financial services sector is expanding into Asia where American business would migrate.This is a rich and stable country however we were to a minor extent negatively impacted by the sub-prime crisis. It was Bill Clinton who messaged that anyone was entitled to a mortgage, regardless of ability to repay. We are retired. We rely on financial managers for our income. People who take time to thoroughly educate themselves on the deliberately hidden complexities of this tax KNOW it would be a killer in very many ways. Ordinary people are being fact-deprived, led to the cliff-face like innocent lemmings. Mathematical modelling shows negative net revenue on such a tax. The world needs a strong, economically revived America, not one led by an ideologically motivated and dangerous revenge principle – advocating what is undoubtedly fools’ gold.

          • Anonymous

            P.S. I point to the US refusal on this, along with our country, because they too adamantly refuse to engage in this robbing hood nonsense.
            We don’t want to see London economically demised and wiped out by Brussels – at the urging of robbing hood deceit. It wouldn’t only be US business migrating to Asia, it would be the City like them or loathe them, and your tax revenues and thousands of exponential jobs would disappear.

          • Blarg1987

            To add a curve ball to this debate they did work out that the city overall is a net neautral or of a net detriment to the UK economy but although we need that revenue now, it is wise to move away from such a heavy financially based system.

          • Anonymous

            But where do you move to Blarg? China, Thailand, Phillipines and emerging Indonesia monopolise manufacturing. Have you visited Shanghai? Have you witnessed modern China’s employee-friendly manufacturing factories? Keep whatever employment you have left for now,don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. From where we live it’s obvious Brussels is trying to take over  what remains of London’s City.  The only way you will find out if the city is net neutral is to let it fold. A reckless proposition.

          • Blarg1987

            I mean in the context we move the UK to a higher balance of manufacturing and other services etc

  • Foolsgold Gordo

    The  (not so) funny thing is, I seem to end up paying the tax that is aimed at high earners.  They certainly seem to find a way of passing their taxes on to people like me.  They just want to keep raking in big money!  The ordinary bloke in the street has a few bob to invest for his future and pension, etc. but these b******s just want it all.  It isn’t enough to make a small profit out of investing other peoples money, they want all the profit and all the capital if they can get it and the government lets them.

  • Questioner

    I can’t help suspecting that the City is a zero gain institution for us. They consistently tell us how many gazillions of pounds of the UK economy is dependent on a strong City, but I think they’re mistaking the volume of transactions with the value added. Transactions – mega. Take home pay of bankers – mega. Actual value added – tiny. The City doesn’t produce anything, and the one area where they should be supporting the wider economy – by acting as an enabler for businesses which need capital – is not exactly a success story.

    I’d stop short of stringing them all up. Probably.

  • John Watson

    This Tobin Tax was already tried in Sweden and with drawn with in years. It is a failed tax which never works. If they really want to go after the bankers then tax the bankers directly. However to totally blame banks we need to look at the banking sector the the Bank of England.  Such as the fraud from printing money out of thin air, factual reserve and government guarantees that encourage risk taking. Bill Nighy as he said, he does not have a clue and prefers to listen to big government loving lobbyists and Keynesian economists who supports this central planned economic system which with out they would be with out a job..